tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post3817020118718988604..comments2024-03-28T11:09:29.081-07:00Comments on Marvel University: October 1967: The Coming of MODOK!John Scolerihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15830334036783163702noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-17278707388722355202012-07-28T20:10:49.745-07:002012-07-28T20:10:49.745-07:00I wonder if Professor Glenn might be Jack Kirby fr...I wonder if Professor Glenn might be Jack Kirby from beyond? Or Stan Lee? Or Roy Thomas?Jim Barwisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06621993116774388708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-46821174506748406362012-07-27T19:35:40.070-07:002012-07-27T19:35:40.070-07:00I've never read any account of any discussion ...I've never read any account of any discussion between Kirby and Ditko about Objectivism, but it's fair to assume that such discussions would've taken place, and that a lot of Jack's knowledge, and initial curiosity about the philosophy came from Steve. About 35 years ago, I worked alongside an Objectivist, and trust me, I knew his views on everything.<br /><br />Politically, Kirby was a Liberal Democrat, and I understand that Stan, although being Conservative, held fairly moderate views, so he was somewhere in the center, and any Objectivist worth his salt would have views somewhere to the right of Attila The Hun. I think it was Mark Evanier who noted that Stan was stuck in the middle. His views were too far to the right for Jack, and too far to the left for Steve.<br /><br />I think Kirby peaked at Marvel too. The stuff from FF #44 to #67 and Thor #120 to #144 just blows me away. There are just so many great ideas, and Kirby's artwork peaked at this time too IMO.<br /><br />There's no doubt in my mind that Jack needed a scripter, (so did Ditko) and everyone needs an editor to keep an eye on us to keep everything on track. In Stan Lee, Jack had come close to finding the perfect Editor/Scriper for his needs. Had Stan not changed Jack's stories (and as Editor he was perfectly entitled to do so) and not taken credit for Jack's creations, Jack's peak might've continued through the rest of the 1960s, and he may have stayed at Marvel. <br /><br />Here's another example of Stan changing Jacks intentions.<br /><br />This is page 2 of FF Annual #3 with Jack's notes visible at the top of the page. <br /><br />http://www.whatifkirby.com/sites/default/files/comicpages/ffannual3_pg2_a.jpg?1289711792<br /><br />Panel 1: Doom mad at FF being happy – since Thing beat him up. He rips paper.<br />Panel 2: This hurts his hands and makes him angrier … he'll get even.<br /><br />Kirby's plot follows on from FF #40, where the Thing crushed Doom's hands. Doom's injuries force him to stay on the sidelines, using an “Emotion Charger” to compel others to do his dirty work. Stan ignores this plot element and has Doom simply continuing his quest to destroy the FF. However, look at Kirby's illustrations. In panel 2, Doom is clearly in pain after tearing up the newspaper, and in panel 3 activates the charger with his foot, then in panel 4 has to operate it with his elbow. <br /><br />At DC, Kirby was hell bent on not having his work altered by others. His stories suffer in the scripting department. Jack's dialog is quirky to say the least, but, the best issues of New Gods are right up there with his best Marvel stuff. It just doesn't manifest itself on a month to month basis. <br /><br />In retrospect it's a shame Kirby didn't take Joe Sinnott with him when he went to DC, and hire Mark Evanier to script and edit his work.<br /><br />I agree that Kamandi is far from Jack's best work, (I liked some of it) but, ironically, it was Jack's best selling title at DC.<br /><br />Here's a link to an article about the origins of Kamandi.<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/bu4f7zs <br /><br />Peter: Gene Colan did draw one E.C. Story, “Wake” published in Two Fisted Tales #20. The best I could do was find the splash page on this website.<br /><br />http://www.comicsbulletin.com/columns/264/top-10-comics-illustrated-by-gene-colan/<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />Glenn :)GlennMEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536558149189057537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-4826128182838295042012-07-27T08:28:47.399-07:002012-07-27T08:28:47.399-07:00Glenn, did Kirby and Ditko ever discuss Objectivis...Glenn, did Kirby and Ditko ever discuss Objectivism? One would think Lee would have been in favor of it with his constant Commie-bashing. I love Kirby as much as the next guy, but I still think his work in collaboration with Lee was better than what he did later, when he was credited with writing. I would not compare Kamandi favorably with Thor, for example.Jack Seabrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216640325305820140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-12486885283044178832012-07-27T06:30:23.138-07:002012-07-27T06:30:23.138-07:00And the casual passersby (or even the MU fanatic) ...And the casual passersby (or even the MU fanatic) once again asks "Why is this Glenn guy not contributing to the body of each week's post?"<br /><br />Why? indeed!Peter Enfantinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04317575598411394944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-21468024890577329192012-07-27T03:59:41.081-07:002012-07-27T03:59:41.081-07:00YA GOTTA HAVE A VILLAIN (Part two)
When Stan saw ...YA GOTTA HAVE A VILLAIN (Part two)<br /><br />When Stan saw the first part of this story, he felt that changes had to be made. He didn't see any villain, so he had to come up with one. He could only choose between the being or the scientists and went the "Mad Scientist/Sympathetic Creature" route. Stan always had photostats of Jack's artwork sent back to him, with Stan's dialog added, so that Jack could remember plot continuities, and see how Stan was interpreting the stories. When Jack received the photostats for issue #66, he wasn't pleased. The entire reason for the story had been gutted, replaced with a standard comic book plot, and he was now forced to change the rest of his story to support Lee's version.<br /><br />The story Jack wanted: "Create a superior human and he just might find you inferior enough to get rid of," became "bad guys try to take over world and get their comeuppance." A few years earlier, Stan and Jack had long plot discussions and the stories were kept simple. As read in the now famous interview with Stan in “Castle of Frankenstein” magazine, Lee gave little input to the stories produced during this time, having full confidence in Jack's ability to come up with new characters and situations. Jack was mostly working on his own, with Stan often not knowing what was coming up in the next issue. <br /><br />Unfortunately, Stan considered Jack's input as "plots," whereas Jack thought of them as "stories," meaning that was the writer, not Stan. As Jack was left to his own devices, Jack found it more and more intolerable to accept the changes that Lee would make, and take credit as the writer of his stories.<br /><br />With the conclusion of this story, Jack decides that he has given Marvel enough new characters, devices, and situations. He had seen too many of his creations and/or stories changed against his wishes or taken away from him. <br /><br />From November '65 to November '67 Jack was pretty much writing the stories on his own, and plotting other books that he wasn't drawing. In this period he spearheaded a “Cambrian Explosion” of major new characters and new concepts. After November '67, you get the exact opposite; many secondary characters, but very few memorable ones.<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />Glenn :)GlennMEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536558149189057537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-9666507852205187512012-07-27T03:58:13.371-07:002012-07-27T03:58:13.371-07:00YA GOTTA HAVE A VILLAIN (Part one)
Stan Lee, 1968...YA GOTTA HAVE A VILLAIN (Part one)<br /><br />Stan Lee, 1968:<br />" ... Then the artist goes home...or wherever he goes...and he draws the thing out, brings it back, and I put the copy in after he's drawn the story based on the plot I've given him. Now this varies with the different artists. Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others. Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I'll just say to Jack, 'Let's make the next villain be Dr. Doom'... or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He's good at plots. I'm sure he's a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing... I may tell him he's gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I'll give him a plot, but we're practically both the writers on the things. "<br /><br />The following text was condensed and edited by me from an article “A Failure To Communicate” by Mike Gartland. <br /><br />Here's a link to the full text:<br />http://twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/24compare.html<br /><br />And for those who have never seen them, here's one of Kirby's pencilled pages showing the notes he supplied for Stan to follow.<br /><br />http://gmemail.customer.netspace.net.au/MU/ff66_4.jpg<br /><br />When FF #67 hit the stands, no one realized this story would be the end of an incredibly productive run.<br /><br />Jack Kirby was becoming disenchanted with his position at Marvel and his working relationship with Stan Lee. Over the previous year, Marvel received a great deal of publicity; articles in newspapers and magazines hailing Lee for his new and innovative style, and how the readership wondered how Lee "came up" with characters like the Hulk, Thor, and Spider-Man, among others. Jack was tired of submitting stories with his margin notes for direction, being either changed or ignored by Lee.<br /><br />Jack wrote the story as his take on Objectivism. What Jack had read of Ayn Rand had him thinking about the philosophy and its pitfalls. Jack probably did not consciously think, "Here's my answer to Ayn Rand"; he just wanted to write a good story. But in Jack's original version, the scientists are well-intentioned. They are attempting to create a totally self-sufficient being, based on Rand's absolutes. Of course such a being would be totally intolerant of those who created him.<br /><br />In the first part of the story, the scientists attack the being in an attempt to control him. This violates one of the doctrines of Objectivism. Also, the scientists conduct the experiment for the benefit of mankind … another violation. In the end, the being destroys his creators because, to him, they are evil. They tried to destroy him. Remember, in the eyes of an Objectivist there is no gray area between good and evil. Jack may have wanted to show us the vast difference between Altruism and Objectivism.<br /><br />(continued in Part two)GlennMEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536558149189057537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-28108216490168196732012-07-26T20:50:06.809-07:002012-07-26T20:50:06.809-07:00Some quickie observations:
Wouldn't "Blit...Some quickie observations:<br />Wouldn't "Blitzkrieg in Brooklyn" make more sense? Well, for fans of alliteration like myself.<br /><br />Doesn't Hawkeye realize Thor's hair isn't curly? Oh wait, he's being ironic! I get it!<br /><br />The Super-Adaptoid (who I always found cool) is a doctor? (Oh, that's a stretch, sorry.)<br /><br />Lord of the Loincloth Ka-Zar gets a bad rap in this space. I'm nervous for February!<br /><br />Amazing Spider-Man: Greatest comic book ever. Period.<br /><br />Fantastic Four: Second greatest? Certainly the best Kirby art ever, and the most epic story lines back in this era. Well, there's always What If?......<br /><br />Awesome Strange Tales cover! Now we now where Cap went!<br /><br />MODOK! My daughter loves him on the animated Super Hero Squad show!<br /><br />Sorry, but that Thor cover looks like a Breck ad.<br /><br />Roy Thomas + X-Men = Bad news for everyone.<br /><br />Is there an art team Prof. Matthew doesn't know?turafishhttp://turafish.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-27591771001173777882012-07-26T09:15:35.561-07:002012-07-26T09:15:35.561-07:00When I first started seriously reading and collect...When I first started seriously reading and collecting comics in '73, for some reason I didn't fully appreciate the reprint books. I dutifully bought and read them, but there was always in the back of my mind the feeling that they were "leftovers" -- I'd much rather be reading a "new" comic. That changed in the summer of '74, when the "Him" sequence was reprinted in MARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS. I was so blown away by the art, the stories, the insanely imaginative concepts -- MCG jumped to the top of the short list of comics I most looked forward to ever month. Suddenly, the then-current run of FF started to feel like "leftovers" -- basically re-telling the same old stories (and Rich Buckler often re-using figures and faces from Kirby's prime <br />period) with much less panache.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-71492074969846584452012-07-25T23:24:10.557-07:002012-07-25T23:24:10.557-07:00Over the years, I've read many interviews wher...Over the years, I've read many interviews where Stan gave artists starting out at Marvel a few comic books to show them what he wanted. Gil Kane was told to imitate Kirby, so he imitated Kirby's explosive action. Later, under the same directive, Barry Smith aped Kirby's style, but, when Dan Adkins was given the Dr. Strange book, he was told to imitate Ditko. In Adkins case, he took the suggestion literally, and gave Stan exactly what he asked for. Stan was probably too busy to notice what was going on in a minor strip like Dr. Strange, and I don't think Ditko has ever commented on Adkins.<br /><br />I'm reminded of a very funny gag cartoon that appeared in The Comics Journal, showing Neal Adams in a discussion with the IRS. The IRS investigator tells Adams that he is perfectly entitled to claim Rich Buckler as a dependent. :)<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />Glenn :)GlennMEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536558149189057537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-55470869158713218112012-07-25T20:36:11.102-07:002012-07-25T20:36:11.102-07:00Hon. Prof. Glenn-
As usual, your contributions he...Hon. Prof. Glenn-<br /><br />As usual, your contributions help to make MU a more informed place to visit, thank you. Was Stan aware of what was going on with Dan Adkins? Was Adkins encouraged perhaps? What, if anything, has Ditko had to say about someone basically riding his long coattails in such a bold fashion?Peter Enfantinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04317575598411394944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-25406614530897708022012-07-25T18:27:28.502-07:002012-07-25T18:27:28.502-07:00There are a couple of things I want to write about...There are a couple of things I want to write about this week, so I'll get the easiest one out of the way first.<br /><br />With Dr. Strange, Dan Adkins takes on the biggest challenge of his comic book career, namely, assembling whole pages from panels traced from various Ditko Dr. Strange stories. As always, "Dapper Dan" is up to the challenge.<br /><br />Here's page 1 of the Dr. Strange story in ST #161, and its source material.<br /><br />http://gmemail.customer.netspace.net.au/MU/strange161_1.jpg<br /><br />Years ago I stumbled upon a post by someone who listed the panels swiped to make up page 3 of this story. So, for the first time anywhere on the internet, here are the panels placed next to Adkins page for comparison.<br /><br />http://gmemail.customer.netspace.net.au/MU/strange161_3.jpg<br /><br />All the best,<br /><br />Glenn :)GlennMEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08536558149189057537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6830827465735526826.post-85094437318574979372012-07-25T07:54:51.962-07:002012-07-25T07:54:51.962-07:00Is Kirby just drawing a 20-page FF, a 15-page Thor...Is Kirby just drawing a 20-page FF, a 15-page Thor, and a 10-page Cap at this point? No wonder the quality is so high. It seemed like he was doing about 80 pages a month a few years ago.<br /><br />I vividly remember Black Magic #1 from 1973 and that big head!Jack Seabrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02216640325305820140noreply@blogger.com